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	<title>Comments on: Writing cultures:  insider vs. outsider</title>
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	<link>http://aliettedebodard.com/2010/02/05/writing-cultures-insider-vs-outsider/</link>
	<description>Writer of Fantasy and Science Fiction</description>
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		<title>By: Gord Sellar on Outsider Writing &#171; The World SF News Blog</title>
		<link>http://aliettedebodard.com/2010/02/05/writing-cultures-insider-vs-outsider/comment-page-1/#comment-351</link>
		<dc:creator>Gord Sellar on Outsider Writing &#171; The World SF News Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 06:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aliettedebodard.com/?p=1557#comment-351</guid>
		<description>[...] a comment &#187;  Gord Sellar tackles a beat by Aliette de Bodard&#8217;s earlier blog entry, and talks about Outsider Writing from his experience: But some of my observations are based on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a comment &raquo;  Gord Sellar tackles a beat by Aliette de Bodard&#8217;s earlier blog entry, and talks about Outsider Writing from his experience: But some of my observations are based on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Outsider Writing : gordsellar.com</title>
		<link>http://aliettedebodard.com/2010/02/05/writing-cultures-insider-vs-outsider/comment-page-1/#comment-347</link>
		<dc:creator>Outsider Writing : gordsellar.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 04:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aliettedebodard.com/?p=1557#comment-347</guid>
		<description>[...] online and so on. I ran across a very interesting post at Aliette de Bodard&#8217;s blog, titled, Writing cultures: insider vs. outsider, about the various advantages and pitfalls faced by authors writing about a specific culture either [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] online and so on. I ran across a very interesting post at Aliette de Bodard&#8217;s blog, titled, Writing cultures: insider vs. outsider, about the various advantages and pitfalls faced by authors writing about a specific culture either [...]</p>
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		<title>By: aliette</title>
		<link>http://aliettedebodard.com/2010/02/05/writing-cultures-insider-vs-outsider/comment-page-1/#comment-306</link>
		<dc:creator>aliette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aliettedebodard.com/?p=1557#comment-306</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure... Wouldn&#039;t you still get feelings for a future world? (after all, it&#039;s made up from stuff that&#039;s found in today&#039;s world, one way or another)

Thank you very much for the links! There is some truly fascinating stuff here. Will have to ponder some more (though I don&#039;t really think I have a mother country in the sense that is usually meant, when the chips come down).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure&#8230; Wouldn&#8217;t you still get feelings for a future world? (after all, it&#8217;s made up from stuff that&#8217;s found in today&#8217;s world, one way or another)</p>
<p>Thank you very much for the links! There is some truly fascinating stuff here. Will have to ponder some more (though I don&#8217;t really think I have a mother country in the sense that is usually meant, when the chips come down).</p>
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		<title>By: Edy Roger</title>
		<link>http://aliettedebodard.com/2010/02/05/writing-cultures-insider-vs-outsider/comment-page-1/#comment-304</link>
		<dc:creator>Edy Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aliettedebodard.com/?p=1557#comment-304</guid>
		<description>quote: &quot;Sadly, in the end, I suspect that the only culture you can ever be authentic to is your own&quot;

When Heidegger quoted &quot;Return to the homeland&quot; poem shortly after Hölderlin return from Switzerland, it was to point out that real world is pre-builded by language :
&quot;before morning shines up,
before noon burns life up,
I called it in silence ...&quot;

I think that we get a problem when nostalgy born by linking language to any identity (even if it is authentic) and not to future worlds (whatever language spoken).

Perhaps any clues:
-A bosnian fiction writer living in the USA, Aleksandar Hemon&#039;s interview &quot;Exile on Any Street&quot; [http://www.guernicamag.com/interviews/1532/not_melted_into_the_pot/] about his way to face up with 2 cultures.
-&quot;Imaginary homelands of writers in exile&#039;s book&quot; points out that double identity writers treat exile not only as a political condition, but also as a new way to understanding the self because each one creates an ideal imaginary land.
-Stranger at home&#039;s article [http://www.logosjournal.com/?q=node/66] , of Andrey Gristman, try to answer &quot;who gives the right to a foreign poet write in a non-native language?&quot;.

Exile? yes. Not from mother country (as militant of lost causes) but from reality ... to re-built it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>quote: &#8220;Sadly, in the end, I suspect that the only culture you can ever be authentic to is your own&#8221;</p>
<p>When Heidegger quoted &#8220;Return to the homeland&#8221; poem shortly after Hölderlin return from Switzerland, it was to point out that real world is pre-builded by language :<br />
&#8220;before morning shines up,<br />
before noon burns life up,<br />
I called it in silence &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that we get a problem when nostalgy born by linking language to any identity (even if it is authentic) and not to future worlds (whatever language spoken).</p>
<p>Perhaps any clues:<br />
-A bosnian fiction writer living in the USA, Aleksandar Hemon&#8217;s interview &#8220;Exile on Any Street&#8221; [http://www.guernicamag.com/interviews/1532/not_melted_into_the_pot/] about his way to face up with 2 cultures.<br />
-&#8221;Imaginary homelands of writers in exile&#8217;s book&#8221; points out that double identity writers treat exile not only as a political condition, but also as a new way to understanding the self because each one creates an ideal imaginary land.<br />
-Stranger at home&#8217;s article [http://www.logosjournal.com/?q=node/66] , of Andrey Gristman, try to answer &#8220;who gives the right to a foreign poet write in a non-native language?&#8221;.</p>
<p>Exile? yes. Not from mother country (as militant of lost causes) but from reality &#8230; to re-built it.</p>
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		<title>By: aliette</title>
		<link>http://aliettedebodard.com/2010/02/05/writing-cultures-insider-vs-outsider/comment-page-1/#comment-301</link>
		<dc:creator>aliette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:08:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aliettedebodard.com/?p=1557#comment-301</guid>
		<description>The native perspective would definitely be helped by getting a trusted few to read your book (though I&#039;m guessing you&#039;d still have people disagreeing, if only because a culture is not a monolithic bloc). But even then, the core of the story might still be wrong: someone mentioned &quot;headspace&quot; over on my livejournal, and how you could get all the external research wrong but screw that up--and I think it&#039;s the hardest obstacle to leap, the one that&#039;s going to be a bitch to solve. 
And definitely with you on the getting the halves wrong. In my case, more the Vietnamese half than the French half, since my upbringing was more French than Vietnamese, but yeah, there&#039;s still small stuff that I react to in ways that are not 100% French. 
The trouble with halfies is that you can end up being a part of neither of your mother cultures. It&#039;s a bit sad...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The native perspective would definitely be helped by getting a trusted few to read your book (though I&#8217;m guessing you&#8217;d still have people disagreeing, if only because a culture is not a monolithic bloc). But even then, the core of the story might still be wrong: someone mentioned &#8220;headspace&#8221; over on my livejournal, and how you could get all the external research wrong but screw that up&#8211;and I think it&#8217;s the hardest obstacle to leap, the one that&#8217;s going to be a bitch to solve.<br />
And definitely with you on the getting the halves wrong. In my case, more the Vietnamese half than the French half, since my upbringing was more French than Vietnamese, but yeah, there&#8217;s still small stuff that I react to in ways that are not 100% French.<br />
The trouble with halfies is that you can end up being a part of neither of your mother cultures. It&#8217;s a bit sad&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kristan</title>
		<link>http://aliettedebodard.com/2010/02/05/writing-cultures-insider-vs-outsider/comment-page-1/#comment-300</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aliettedebodard.com/?p=1557#comment-300</guid>
		<description>As a halfie myself (although Taiwanese, not Viet) I find myself in complete agreement with your thoughts, and similarly at a loss for a solution. Although in terms of satisfying a native perspective, perhaps just getting a trusted few to read your book and point out anything that bothers them would be helpful?

&quot;Sadly, in the end, I suspect that the only culture you can ever be authentic to is your own, taken to mean your narrow set of experiences and memories. The moment you set foot outside the boundaries of your own brain, you have to bridge a gap–and the gap gets worse the more you step away from what you know.&quot;

{nods}

But even as halfies, I think we are not necessarily able to speak authoritatively on both (or either) of our halves. For example, my own mother constantly tells me that I&#039;m not really Chinese and don&#039;t really know what Chinese culture is like. Okay, but my American friends tell me I&#039;m not really American and don&#039;t really know what 100% American culture is like either. So where does that leave me?

I&#039;m oversimplifying the problem here -- and maybe I&#039;m hypersensitive about my identity -- but as a writer I find it both enriching and frustrating to have so many cultural perspectives (but none that are 100% &quot;accurate&quot;) to draw from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a halfie myself (although Taiwanese, not Viet) I find myself in complete agreement with your thoughts, and similarly at a loss for a solution. Although in terms of satisfying a native perspective, perhaps just getting a trusted few to read your book and point out anything that bothers them would be helpful?</p>
<p>&#8220;Sadly, in the end, I suspect that the only culture you can ever be authentic to is your own, taken to mean your narrow set of experiences and memories. The moment you set foot outside the boundaries of your own brain, you have to bridge a gap–and the gap gets worse the more you step away from what you know.&#8221;</p>
<p>{nods}</p>
<p>But even as halfies, I think we are not necessarily able to speak authoritatively on both (or either) of our halves. For example, my own mother constantly tells me that I&#8217;m not really Chinese and don&#8217;t really know what Chinese culture is like. Okay, but my American friends tell me I&#8217;m not really American and don&#8217;t really know what 100% American culture is like either. So where does that leave me?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m oversimplifying the problem here &#8212; and maybe I&#8217;m hypersensitive about my identity &#8212; but as a writer I find it both enriching and frustrating to have so many cultural perspectives (but none that are 100% &#8220;accurate&#8221;) to draw from.</p>
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		<title>By: aliette</title>
		<link>http://aliettedebodard.com/2010/02/05/writing-cultures-insider-vs-outsider/comment-page-1/#comment-295</link>
		<dc:creator>aliette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aliettedebodard.com/?p=1557#comment-295</guid>
		<description>Edy: very interesting. I had not heard about neuroplasticity before, but it&#039;s a concept that makes sense (and is very fascinating. I&#039;m intrigued by the resourcefulness of the brain, though not entirely surprised by it). I take it you&#039;re suggesting that by writing SF set in new cultures and new paragdism, we&#039;re trying to put the brain into new pathways--ones that would not be determined by culture/personal history? 

Sadly, in the end, I suspect that the only culture you can ever be authentic to is your own, taken to mean your narrow set of experiences and memories. The moment you set foot outside the boundaries of your own brain, you have to bridge a gap--and the gap gets worse the more you step away from what you know. The moment you start imagining how a character with a given mindset would react to a given situation, you&#039;re starting to filter through your own cognition, and it&#039;s no longer quite accurate.  
To take my Aztec tales as examples (as you rightly point out, they would give archaeologists fits): they are indeed filtered through my own perceptions, through the needs of the narration and through what I characters with a certain mindset would be feeling in situations llike those. I have absolutely no pretence that I&#039;m writing accurate fiction in the sense that Aztec characters back in the 15th century would have thought like this. I have done my research and created the world to the best of my ability, but, as you say, there&#039;s a gap between me and an Aztec that won&#039;t ever be bridged. (the term &quot;accurate fiction&#039;, more than anything, probably summarises the impossiblity at the heart of what we&#039;re crafting, whether it be in SF or in other genres: we are crafting lies that must be plausible, and twisting life into narrations that make sense. Authenticity tends to fly out the window at this point anyway).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edy: very interesting. I had not heard about neuroplasticity before, but it&#8217;s a concept that makes sense (and is very fascinating. I&#8217;m intrigued by the resourcefulness of the brain, though not entirely surprised by it). I take it you&#8217;re suggesting that by writing SF set in new cultures and new paragdism, we&#8217;re trying to put the brain into new pathways&#8211;ones that would not be determined by culture/personal history? </p>
<p>Sadly, in the end, I suspect that the only culture you can ever be authentic to is your own, taken to mean your narrow set of experiences and memories. The moment you set foot outside the boundaries of your own brain, you have to bridge a gap&#8211;and the gap gets worse the more you step away from what you know. The moment you start imagining how a character with a given mindset would react to a given situation, you&#8217;re starting to filter through your own cognition, and it&#8217;s no longer quite accurate.<br />
To take my Aztec tales as examples (as you rightly point out, they would give archaeologists fits): they are indeed filtered through my own perceptions, through the needs of the narration and through what I characters with a certain mindset would be feeling in situations llike those. I have absolutely no pretence that I&#8217;m writing accurate fiction in the sense that Aztec characters back in the 15th century would have thought like this. I have done my research and created the world to the best of my ability, but, as you say, there&#8217;s a gap between me and an Aztec that won&#8217;t ever be bridged. (the term &#8220;accurate fiction&#8217;, more than anything, probably summarises the impossiblity at the heart of what we&#8217;re crafting, whether it be in SF or in other genres: we are crafting lies that must be plausible, and twisting life into narrations that make sense. Authenticity tends to fly out the window at this point anyway).</p>
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		<title>By: aliette</title>
		<link>http://aliettedebodard.com/2010/02/05/writing-cultures-insider-vs-outsider/comment-page-1/#comment-294</link>
		<dc:creator>aliette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:10:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aliettedebodard.com/?p=1557#comment-294</guid>
		<description>Aaron: you&#039;re welcome!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaron: you&#8217;re welcome!</p>
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		<title>By: aliette</title>
		<link>http://aliettedebodard.com/2010/02/05/writing-cultures-insider-vs-outsider/comment-page-1/#comment-293</link>
		<dc:creator>aliette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aliettedebodard.com/?p=1557#comment-293</guid>
		<description>Emily: wow, fascinating stuff, thanks very much for sharing! I hadn&#039;t thought about the problem, but it does make sense when speaking about a very big cultural entity like China (and it must indeed be rather frustrating to have the feeling you&#039;re almost right but know that you&#039;re not).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emily: wow, fascinating stuff, thanks very much for sharing! I hadn&#8217;t thought about the problem, but it does make sense when speaking about a very big cultural entity like China (and it must indeed be rather frustrating to have the feeling you&#8217;re almost right but know that you&#8217;re not).</p>
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		<title>By: aliette</title>
		<link>http://aliettedebodard.com/2010/02/05/writing-cultures-insider-vs-outsider/comment-page-1/#comment-292</link>
		<dc:creator>aliette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aliettedebodard.com/?p=1557#comment-292</guid>
		<description>Dave: agreed it really helps to think of it in terms of taboos because taboos tend to be quite revealing of a society. 
I&#039;m a little leery of the &quot;Outsider&quot; point of view in the culture, simply because 99% of the time the outsider is white and American--and it&#039;s fine if your target is white and American, but speaking rather selfishly as a Frenchwoman, this doesn&#039;t speak much more to me than if the outsider were some other colour of skin (I understand the need for an entry point, but the entry point has to be in the culture &quot;A&quot;, ie the target audience). I agree it&#039;s a valid stategy and that you definitely have to think about how much of the &quot;foreign&quot; culture you need in your fiction, but I guess I feel like there are too many Outsider stories already. 
But unlike you, I tend to prefer stories about people already in the culture and work out the &quot;rules&quot; for myself, rather than reading stories about cultural discoveries. I think it&#039;s a very personal thing and grows as much out of my upbringing as of my personal tastes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave: agreed it really helps to think of it in terms of taboos because taboos tend to be quite revealing of a society.<br />
I&#8217;m a little leery of the &#8220;Outsider&#8221; point of view in the culture, simply because 99% of the time the outsider is white and American&#8211;and it&#8217;s fine if your target is white and American, but speaking rather selfishly as a Frenchwoman, this doesn&#8217;t speak much more to me than if the outsider were some other colour of skin (I understand the need for an entry point, but the entry point has to be in the culture &#8220;A&#8221;, ie the target audience). I agree it&#8217;s a valid stategy and that you definitely have to think about how much of the &#8220;foreign&#8221; culture you need in your fiction, but I guess I feel like there are too many Outsider stories already.<br />
But unlike you, I tend to prefer stories about people already in the culture and work out the &#8220;rules&#8221; for myself, rather than reading stories about cultural discoveries. I think it&#8217;s a very personal thing and grows as much out of my upbringing as of my personal tastes.</p>
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